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the consequence of this?” is the
l awyer’s question—the importance of
process value. And we did see this with
Guantanamo Bay. Process questions and
how we arrive at certain judgments is our
bread and butter, and we’re trained to
worry about that.
It’s not like we have an a priori assumption about what that change will be. It’s
back to those fundamental values that need
to be there, and they’re not going to be
there if there isn’t somebody committed to
them and asking that question.
AZAT: How would you describe the role of
the law school?
MASSARO: I think people reflect back [on
law school], they say “I changed in law
school, and I changed the way that I
think.” And what does thinking like a
lawyer mean? I think it’s three years of
extended, tough, sophisticated study of relevance. Not everybody’s got that. Second,
the justice question. Third, American history and recognition in hindsight of horrible
mistakes, where we agree, across ideological divides, horrible mistakes, and trying to
think more systematically about what contributed to that; it’s like our version of the
scientific method.
Lawyers’ skills contribute to positive
social change if the lawyer continues to
abide by or take those traditional values
into account, and doesn’t think of him- or
herself as merely a tool to particular ends.
AZAT: The legal scholar Owen Fiss said
that judges ideally are more than mere
adjudicators, but they give concrete meaning to constitutional values. Should lawyers
do that too? Are law schools helping them
do that?
MASSARO: I know exactly what you mean.
I think it’s important for everybody, no
matter what they do, to be able to connect
up with the ineffable. And if you’re a lawyer
and lost track of the big why, I wouldn’t be
surprised if you were feeling a kind of
emptiness.
Every graduation, we always honor some
individuals in the profession, alums and
honorary alums. I always ask if they will give
me a paragraph of what they would say to
the graduating class, and I am struck by the
redundancy. It doesn’t matter if they are in
private practice, government practice, in
looking back on their careers, every single
one says the points at which I was happiest
Toni M. Massaro
University of Arizona James E. Rogers College of Law
as a lawyer have had to do with something
other-centered. It’s an element of being
happy; it’s an element of feeling self-ful-filled. And we’ve got the tools to do this.
I’m not saying happiness would just be
about public service. But for a lot of human
beings across a lot of disciplines, they find
getting past yourself and the immediate is a
better life.
I don’t think happiness is the most
important thing that happens to us; I don’t
think you should even “go after it.” I think
meaning is, and happiness is a by-product of
that.
You have to pay attention. Your life is
like relationships: If you don’t pay attention, it goes away.
AZAT: It sounds like you think deans
should teach.
MASSARO: Yes. You must teach, because
you must stay close to the torch—that’s the
Why. If you don’t like teaching, if you don’t
like your students, I’m not sure I want you
to be dean. I feel pretty strongly about that.
So people should ask why they wanted to
be a lawyer in the first place. I know there
are structural things that are weighing down
on a lot of lawyers; it’s happening to us too.
You have to fight them and find out what
reinvigorates you—but in the profession,
not just outside it.
AZAT: Do you worry about your students
in the economic downturn?
MASSARO: I really worry about them. There
are a lot of things that converge right now
that make it harder for our students, and
not just a bad economy. But the price of
education’s gone up. And so they’ve got
debt, significant debt, so their choices are
more limited. It’s Maslow’s hierarchy:
We’ve all got to see to it at first that we’ve
got the sustenance before we can get to
leisure and other things that make for a
well-rounded life.
A friend, Diane Dear, once said that the
trick to a balanced life is not necessarily a
balanced day. It isn’t every day I’ve got this
balance; it’s, Do I have some sense of the
rhythm of my life, and am I willing to say no
to things that might be more lucrative and
make do with less in order to get some
other things that I personally know I need
to live.
Don’t let your mortgage get bigger than
your dreams. And don’t take a job you’re
not willing to quit.
AZAT: You’ve used “the river” as a
metaphor before; do you like it?
MASSARO: I do. I’ve said Don’t be a twig
on a fast-moving river. If anything, the currents have gotten faster, and you don’t want
your life meaning dictated by the boat you
got on.
You also don’t step in the same river
twice; the philosophers know that. And as
you get older, it does get harder. You
become more inelastic, and that’s not good
for future-oriented institutions. And education is always going to be where the streams
are going. It both determines where they go
and reflects on where we’ve been. We analyze, we produce and we change. And the
pace of all of these things has escalated from
when I started.
AZAT: You told me earlier that you want
many people to get credit for the school’s
accomplishments.
MASSARO: Yes. The pictures at the law
school of the former deans, I think it ought
to be a picture of the team. It’s all of us
who happen to be here at the time and how
we came together to do what we did. But
whether we will endure, whether we made
the right decision, only time will tell.
The associate deans at the college—Kay
Kavanagh, Jane Korn and Michael
Chiorazzi—are my colleagues. And Sandy
Davis is amazing. So it’s family, but it’s also
the people inside the house who are
extraordinary. And I am very, very, very
lucky, with their wisdom. They’ll tell me
the truth, and they hold me together. And
I’m a very Type-A personality, but Sandy
Davis is incredible—I could not have done
it without her, and Kay and Jane and Mike.
Period. That needs to be said.
AZAT: How would people describe you?
MASSARO: I hope they would say, She put
the institution first. And I hope the community would say, I understand that anything we’re able to accomplish, past, present and future, education’s a team sport
and that collaboration makes us stronger.
You’d also hope they’d say you’re fair
and a good person, even if they disagreed
with you.
When [UA President] Pete Likins finished, someone asked him, “What are your
greatest accomplishments?” and he said,
“We’ll see.”
But I sure did try hard, I’ll tell you that.
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I’ve given it my all.
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